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We’re joined by Wael Saasouh, an anesthesiologist; Lisa Scardina, a health care executive; and Kim Downey, a physician advocate and physical therapist, to discuss the urgent need to restore human connections in health care. From tackling clinician burnout and moral injury to enhancing collaboration across silos, our guests share powerful insights on creating a supportive environment that values well-being and deepens the physician-patient relationship.
Wael Saasouh is an anesthesiologist. Lisa Scardina is a health care executive. Kim Downey is a physician advocate and physical therapist.
They discuss the KevinMD article, “Fighting burnout with deeper human connections.”
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Transcript
Kevin Pho: Hi, and welcome to the show. Subscribe at KevinMD.com/podcast. Today, we welcome back, of course, Kim Downey. She is a physician advocate, and she brought together Wael Saasouh. He’s an anesthesiologist, and Lisa Scardina, she’s a health care executive. Today’s KevinMD article is “Fighting Burnout with Deeper Human Connections.” Everybody, welcome to the show.
Guests: Thank you, Kevin. Thanks, Kevin.
Kevin Pho: All right, Kim, let’s start with you. Thank you again so much for bringing such a diverse intersection of people across the health care spectrum together. We’ve had fascinating conversations. So what brought Wael and Lisa together? How did they connect with you?
Kim Downey: So, Wael was one of my early connections on LinkedIn a year ago June, and we Zoomed and appreciated the work that we were each doing. We Zoomed again later, and we’ve kept in contact. I met Lisa a year ago last summer when I was invited to be part of the traction team for Medicine Forward. We had a retreat this summer, and I got to spend a whole weekend with Lisa and the others, and it was amazing.
Kevin Pho: Perfect. Wael, Lisa, I’m going to ask each of you just to briefly share your story and journey. So, Wael, why don’t you go first?
Wael Saasouh: Sure. Good to be here. Thank you. I’m originally an anesthesiologist from overseas, and I moved to the States about ten years ago where I had to redo my residency, get board certification. I’m currently an anesthesiologist in Michigan, a researcher, and a business owner on the side, trying to get into innovation and the human aspect of it.
Kevin Pho: All right, Lisa, tell us your story and journey.
Lisa Scardina: Thanks. I’ve been working in health care for over 20 years as an administrator based in Portland, Oregon. I just have a real affection and affinity for working with and for physicians over the years. My current role is as brand and partner development lead for a physician and APC recruitment firm that’s part of the Providence Health system. So I think part of what’s informing my perspective is really looking at the physician supply and demand across the country, the pressures on physicians in different care settings, and what organizations can do about that.
Kevin Pho: All right. So Lisa, let’s start there. From your perspective as a physician or clinician recruiter, tell me some of the trends that you’re seeing and how burnout may influence those trends.
Lisa Scardina: Sure. So I think it’s pretty well known that there’s a shortage and really a crisis with the health care workforce coming off of COVID or otherwise. For us, we place about 1,400 physicians and APCs across the country in about 100 different settings. I think sitting at that intersection between a health care system, a physician, and an APC, we really have an ear to the ground in terms of what physicians are looking for and how health care organizations may be taking new approaches to address the burnout issue—creating environments more conducive to better work-life balance, different approaches to wellness, and frankly, more autonomy for physicians in deciding their schedules and compensation models. The trends we’re seeing show a shortage, especially in critical access hospitals. We’re seeing closures due to the inability to recruit physicians, putting pressure on organizations to create environments where physicians want to work.
Kevin Pho: Yeah, Lisa, just to follow up on that, you mentioned several potential solutions—empowerment, work-life balance, more control over their compensation and schedule. From your discussions with clinicians, which of those solutions tends to resonate most with them when they accept a job?
Lisa Scardina: It’s interesting. I don’t know that there’s any one solution. One stat that stands out to me is that compensation is no longer the number one issue for physicians. They really want a healthy work environment. We’ve done research with different segments and motivators for physicians, and I think it takes a multi-pronged approach. Organizations need to invest in technology to aid physicians in their work, within the EMR or otherwise. Cultural aspects, leadership development, or cohorts of physicians coming together to talk about their interests—these are all important. It’s a little bit of everything; I don’t think there’s a singular point that stands out. It really takes work on all fronts.
Kevin Pho: Wael, in your contribution, you talk about the need to prioritize the physician-patient connection in organizational decision-making. From your perspective, what steps can organizations take to prioritize these relationships while balancing operational and financial constraints? What are your ideas?
Wael Saasouh: There’s a lot to be said here, and to follow up on what Lisa said, there is a problem, and everybody recognizes it. But it’s often very complicated to implement a simple solution. Things that make sense aren’t easy to do because everyone is so entrenched in their roles. Administration does administration, clinicians do clinics, and patients are just there to get the care. There isn’t much conversation between these groups. In my mind, the top priority would be to get that communication going. The physician-patient relationship is suffering because physicians are overwhelmed by their workload, administrators are overwhelmed trying to meet demand with insufficient supply, and patients are stuck in the middle. A community mindset between all these groups would be a first step. We can’t work in silos. If we talk to each other, we’ll find common ground and ways to contribute. The solutions are there, and the people who can solve the problems are there, but they’re not talking to each other.
Kevin Pho: Wael, talk about the frustration from a physician’s standpoint where silos still exist, and physicians and administrators don’t take that community mindset. How does that contribute to obstacles in giving the best care to patients?
Wael Saasouh: If we silo so much, we start feeling like we are right, and everyone else is wrong. We demonize others because they have different priorities. But the priorities are the same in the end—we need to take care of patients and provide the best care. This involves everyone, not just physicians. Administrators, assistants, everyone. If you’re the best physician on Earth but lack access to care, you can’t do much. The biggest problem is everyone having their individual mindset without contributing to the community.
Kevin Pho: Kim, after hearing Wael’s and Lisa’s stories, what’s the connective tissue that brings them together in addressing physician burnout? You’ve talked to so many clinicians about this. What about their stories stands out in this conversation?
Kim Downey: Wael is involved in so many different things. He’s a practicing physician, a health care leader, a researcher, and an entrepreneur. I have such admiration for him. Lisa led our Medicine Forward retreat, which was a big undertaking, and she did an incredible job. Both Wael and Lisa are optimistic and practical, and they understand the challenges of health care from multiple perspectives. They met on my YouTube channel, and I suggested they Zoom together, and they even started a Google document to prepare. They’re both so organized, dedicated, and committed. After the YouTube session, they felt some synergy and wanted to collaborate further. And here we are.
Kevin Pho: I think one thing that you said, Kim, that really resonates is that we have to solve this from different perspectives. Wael, from your perspective as a physician, and Lisa, from health care leadership, you both mentioned the importance of relational leadership and human flourishing. Lisa, talk more about those characteristics and how health care leaders can implement them to help address the problems you’ve described.
Lisa Scardina: Sure. A great example from a few years ago was when I was part of the medical group in the Oregon region. We did a pilot program we called the Compassion Initiative. We had a control group of clinics that carried on with business as usual, and another group that took an hour every other week to bring teams together to discuss how things were going—difficult patients, the impact across the clinic on different roles like the medical assistants, physicians, and front office staff. What we found was that taking that one hour every other week led to improvements in patient satisfaction, engagement scores, and productivity. It showed that a little bit of structured time to open up dialogue across the team can be incredibly impactful. That really set me on a course to think about how small tests of change, if done enough, can provide demonstrated results. It’s an example of how relational leadership—creating a safe space, psychological safety, and open, honest conversations—can have a profound impact in the midst of busy schedules and immense pressure.
Kevin Pho: And Lisa, are you seeing this approach as part of a broader trend among health care leaders, or is it unique to your institution?
Lisa Scardina: I do see it as a trend. One of the things Kim and I are working on with Medicine Forward is the upcoming Health Care Burnout Symposium in New York in November. Medicine Forward will be hosting a workshop inviting physicians, patients, and others to explore how to deepen human connection in health care. I think we’re seeing more of this community-connected, collaborative conversation, as Wael was talking about, happening across different health care settings and with patients. This is just one example, but there are little glimmers of activity within organizations, physician advocacy groups, and patient advocacy groups that signal positive momentum in this direction.
Kevin Pho: Wael, you’ve worn many hats—you’re a physician, a health care leader, an entrepreneur. When it comes to physician burnout, you mentioned the power of community. What other successful techniques have you seen that move the needle on burnout? Because it seems like we’ve been talking about this issue for years, and while the needle has moved, it hasn’t moved as far as we’d like.
Wael Saasouh: I completely agree—the needle has moved, but not nearly far enough. From my experience with various employers, the ones that succeed in alleviating burnout are the ones that focus on the personal stories of their physicians. They organize social gatherings, times when people can sit down and talk about things other than work. Lisa mentioned the every-other-week one-hour session, and that’s a great example of taking people out of their day-to-day grind and into a different mindset where they can talk to each other as human beings, not just co-workers. The most effective technique I’ve seen is fostering empathy from both sides. It’s not just about leaders trying to get clinicians to work; clinicians also have relationships with leadership. If that relationship is more personal and focused on the well-being of the physician—whether they’re sleeping OK, eating well, or have the facilities they need—it makes a big difference. The same goes for leaders. A burned-out leader will burn out the entire team. This empathy, this emotional connection between leaders and clinicians, is crucial.
Kevin Pho: Wael, you talk about empathy, and we always emphasize the empathy administrators should have for physicians. How about physicians’ empathy for the stresses and obstacles administrators face? I think administrators have their own set of goals that physicians might not be aware of. Can you talk about how physicians can show empathy toward health care administration?
Wael Saasouh: Absolutely. This goes back to the idea of siloed thinking. Physicians often think administrators are just there to make money and overwork them, while administrators think physicians complain too much. There’s a lot of nuance to this. Getting a glimpse into each other’s lives would help. When administrators and clinicians are in separate states—figuratively or literally—and have no idea what each other is doing, it doesn’t help humanize the other person. Organizing face-to-face events or even work meetings where both sides can see what the other is dealing with would help. Then you can understand the stress the other is under and find a way for both sides to come out winning.
Kevin Pho: We’re talking about the KevinMD article “Fighting Burnout with Deeper Human Connections.” I’m going to ask each of you to share some take-home messages you’d like to leave with the KevinMD audience. Kim, why don’t you go first?
Kim Downey: Sure. Since we’re talking about deeper human connections today, my takeaway is about LinkedIn. You know what they say about social media—put down your phone, social media isn’t real life. Last year, as I became more active on LinkedIn, I had mixed feelings. I spoke to my physician coach, Dr. Michael Hirsch, because I was questioning whether the time I spent on LinkedIn and the relationships I built there were real life. Michael asked me if there was any evidence that they weren’t real life. That got me thinking, and a year later, I can confidently say it’s real life. I’ve met up with 16 of my LinkedIn doctor friends in real life, some of them twice, from Connecticut to Rhode Island, Long Island, New Jersey, D.C., North Carolina, West Virginia, Michigan, and even in Ireland. Human connections are so important, and they won’t happen by passive scrolling. You have to reach out. I reached out to Wael on LinkedIn because I admired him, and that’s how it all started. Don’t feel bad if someone doesn’t connect with you; they might just be afraid. It doesn’t mean anything about you. Be willing to be a little vulnerable and put yourself out there. Beautiful things will happen.
Kevin Pho: Lisa, please share some of your take-home messages.
Lisa Scardina: Sure. My take-home message is that tackling big, complex issues like burnout in health care starts with small steps. Opening up conversations with colleagues, whether it’s in a program like Medicine Forward or just locally with your team, or even making a suggestion to your leadership group, is important. Work from a place of possibility, and support yourself individually so you have the energy to engage. It’s one small step at a time, and it’s important to take that step.
Kevin Pho: Wael, we’ll end with you. Please share your take-home messages.
Wael Saasouh: It’s essential for everyone to keep their “why” in mind. Why did they get into this profession in the first place? What keeps them connected to what they do? It’s easy to get lost in the day-to-day work and forget about the emotional connection to your job, your career, and the people around you. That applies to everyone, not just one side or the other. Adopting a community mindset will help in the long run because all the expertise is already here. The people who can fix these situations are already working on them, maybe individually. But if we put all those minds together, we’ll find solutions.
Kevin Pho: Everybody, thank you so much for sharing your perspectives and insights. And thanks to you all for coming on the show.
Guests: Thank you.
